It occurs to me that the most important element of the p90 design is the trigger being right under the barrel at the front. The back of the gun is only as long as a person's forearm, and this can be approximated on a minifig by extending a mechanism housing behind the trigger only as far as it can go, as far as the buttstocks are on the sniper rifle and such. This would produce a p90 similar in size to the SOCOM pistol, which is about right.

Granted, my own fiddling is rather ugly, but I still argue that a bullpup is feasible as an "approximation."

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Al's Microphone

This is unlikely. I recently discussed this with Will. What I did was take the very picture of the P90 which you have in your post, and I traced out its design in CorelDraw, removing the join between the grip and the buttstock. In essence, the weapon could be made suitable for a minifig hand while maintaining its distinct forward profile.

Will's primary concern here is that it would stray too far from the design of the actual weapon. That's an important part of his items; the fact that they look 'right' in and OUT of a minifig hand. Changes like what you (and I) suggested would detract from the realism of the weapon.

It's a possibility, mind you. But a very remote one. Perhaps if enough people would want a gun designed like this, and if Will's sons think it would look cool, then we'll see it. But don't get your hopes up; it's very unlikely.

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The Jester Laughs Because The World Is Full Of Fools

It's not a question of ease or possibility; I have no doubt Will could design an "approximated" P90 and do a fantastic job of it. However, for the reasons Damien discussed above, he doesn't choose to. As for working with "all LEGO", minifigs are by far the primary element that's going to be using Brickarms items, so designing accessories with the anatomy of a minifig in mind is in Will's best interest.

As an example, take a look at another vendor's Sturmgewehr. While their other work is good and the Sturmgewehr doesn't look half bad by itself, if you try to put that weapon in the hands of a minifig, it doesn't work well at all (stock is too long, overall weapon size it out of proportion). Clearly, the designers of that item didn't take into account how good the fit of the item would be in minifig hands and the item suffers for it.

I'm personally glad Will chooses to focus his attention on items of both high playability AND also function as small works of art in regards to stylized representations of modern weapons. I know Will has shown his work to gun enthusiasts who know little to nothing about LEGO or minifigs, and they absolutely love them. Would a hacked-up P90 get the same accolades? I honestly don't believe so.



I know I've seen a similar weapon somewhere before, but I'll be darned if I can remember where. Anyone have an idea?

badger

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"... and that's when the C.H.U.D.s came at me"

I am 100% against 'approximated' Brickarms weapons. If the gun can't be made accurately, just use another weapon.

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"Today you get to say "I told you so."
"Today, I don't want to . . . but I did bloody tell you."

The thing is that when a lego minifig is laying down on the flour ,shooting from behind his little bit of cover, it would look kinda weird if he held his gun to the side and not to the front.

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BRICK ARMS: DEATH FOR LEGO'S RESURRECTION FOR US!

Hmm. Well, in case it's not abundantly clear, I am Jonathan Cordova. So thank you for noticing my work!
I disagree. You'll notice here and here I have posed soldiers shooting sideways while behind cover, and I believe the sideways firing actually helps the minifig look realistic. Real people fire sideways!

However, I don't argue for bullpups to be held sideways. My argument is this: the only bullpup I know of and like is the p90, for its role on Stargate. It is used on Stargate because the p90 is so SMALL that it just hangs off your belt. So, an equivalent minifig/BrickArms scale p90 would literally be the size of a pistol (as in protruding no further past the minifig's hand than the PPK, with the bullpup mechanism extending back behind the hand grip.

Oh, additionally, bullpups like the p90 can be held facing forward, in one hand, with the mechanism housing resting on top of your forearm, just like a minifig would hold it. In this picture, she doesn't need to use her left arm. If she puts her left hand down, she doesn't need to move the gun anywhere, because the p90 already faces forward (whereas an m4 held with two hands points sideways). She can hold it up with her right arm. Thus bullpups are even easier to make realistic in terms of how they are held by a minifig.

Let me say it this way. Everybody remember Jeff's scout pistol from another vendor?

I'm saying a BrickArms p90 should be built this way:

Again, this image is by no means perfect. But the idea is: Jeff's old scout pistol had a very shallow angle or "rake" in the hand grip, which means the stock behind the hand grip can extend farther than usual. Since a bullpup is just a short muzzle with a mechanism behind the hand grip, a stubby, "fattened" p90 can be approximated as a BrickArm.

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Al's Microphone

Man, I'm really geting a kick out of this thread! You guys are articulate, and the banter is thought-provoking.

Although Damien and I have gone 'round and 'round on this over the past year, I like what I'm reading! Keep going, guys!

I agree about the AUG, GreenLead. That would be next to impossible to make as a BrickArm; it would require even more reworking than the Thomposon did. The interesting thing is, however, that the AUG actually has two hand grips, which means it would only be held sideways. I'm willing to concede that, while I like to pose my minifigs holding BrickArms sideways, it would have less of a selling point, since you get to see less of the torso decal.

About the p90 again, I've fiddled some more, and I think this is as good as my horrible graphics skills will get it:

The rear stock is just a little to long for a minifig's arm, but in this configuration, shortening and trimming it would be acceptable IMHO.
Remember, this gun would be tiny, as in the PPK with a hunchback.


Okay, so there's my dream for an SG team.

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Al's Microphone

Weighing in on a few issues under discussion here, I really like the mock-up P90 designs you've posted, JPCJedi. I'd liken the case of the P90 to that of Will's new MA5C - a bullpup design that's small enough to be used in a one-handed and thus much more easily adapted into a minifig accessory. So long as the stock of the weapon clears the minifig forearm, it works perfectly.

However, I don't think we can extrapolate this design method to larger bullpup-style weapons (the Steyr AUG for instance). Yes, it's true human beings more often than not hold these weapons two-handed and closer to across our chest than one-handed and straight ahead, but it's important to remember that minifig is a caricature of the human form and has markedly different characteristics in regard to body proportion and flexibility. When designing an accessory for the minifig, one has to take those differences in mind in terms of what accessory designs will best fit the limitations of the minifig - namely, natural-looking two handed holds are impossible to achieve with some weapon design.

I realize the ability for a minifig to hold a weapon in a "cross-chested" fashion has been mentioned, but considering most of a minifig's anatomy is meant to be analogous to that of a person, this pose more closely resembles the "port arms" position (with the weapon held parallel to the ground instead of the usual diagonal) as opposed to the most common way a larger rifle is held with one arm bent back and the other more fully extended. The overall impression the cross-chested hold is more of the figure handing the weapon to someone as opposed to firing it.

Compare how natural looking the posing is in JPCJedi's pictures to this MOC minifig by Jeff of "another vendor" fame that featured more articulated arms.

Still, I think you've made a great case of a Brickarms P90 that would require only minimal changes to the design to be a fantastic, instantly recognizable minifig accessory.

badger

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"... and that's when the C.H.U.D.s came at me"

That's probably because he's using the handle from a another vendor Scout Blaster. Still, we've got to commend JPCJedi for at least giving it a try. (On second thoughts, if he rounded out the grip and hand guard a wee bit more...it would be perfect)

I see what the problem is with weapons like the Steyr AUG. Mind you, while it's actually not something I am desperate to have Will produce, it's just the first thing that popped into my head when I saw this thread.



Badger, I had a look. I would have to agree with you - to a certain degree. I've actually tried looking for those articulated joints, to no avail. I think that until people are happy with trying to pose their minifigs firing bullpups cross-body or TLC starts producing more articulate joints, I guess there's not a lot I can do with weapons like the FN F2000 and the Steyr AUG.

Great discussing this with everyone though. Any new suggestions please post to this thread and PM me afterwards.

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LS DoD appointed Technical Advisor to 2nd Infantry Division's "A" Company and his Flickr
"Some folks don't want peace - they want quiet. But until there is justice, there will be no peace and quiet."
- Rev. Jesse Jackson (modified)